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Thunder-3D  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, May 25, 2021 11:43:28 AM(UTC)
Thunder-3D

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Ok, so after I answered a post about this in the USM update thread, I continued to keep digging into the issue, especially after I wasn't able to replicate it anymore. I'm not a believer in the "no news is good news" type of thinking, and even though the problem went away for me, I couldn't explain WHY the problem went away.


Here's what I found.


Basically, the way geoshells are supposed to work is they fully duplicate the entire mesh of the object they are linked to, this includes any geografts attached to the parent object. This new mesh floats just outside of the parent mesh, and that "float" is controlled by the offset parameter. In a perfect world, if you set a geoshell to a .001 offset, that would mean every point on the mesh would be exactly .001cm outside the parent mesh.


This is not a perfect world. 


When you see that weird, glassy blob form on your characters, it's caused by the shell crossing the parent mesh. This can also occur when 2 meshes that are stacked on a character cross with each other.


But wait, this isn't supposed to happen, right? .001 means .001, all over the geometry of the figure!


The problem comes in when you're working with these really deep, fine distance changes, the software has trouble keeping up with all these distances. It's already calculating all the mesh of the figure, if you're using lvl 2 or 3 subdivision, you're multiplying the number of points on that mesh, AND because the geoshell is just a mimic of the parent mesh, it must match that subdivision which multiplies the points on the geoshell as well. Eventually the render engine starts making mistakes in the distances of the geoshell mesh, which gives you that mesh crossing (glassy blobs). These mistakes are very tiny, but when you're talking about these very small offsets, it doesn't take much to cause a mesh meant to float above, to partially cross underneath.


Also, because these meshes are breaking randomly, sometimes you won't see any mesh crossing at offsets as low as .0005, but this is because the render engine caught the mesh crossing, this time, and may not catch it again in another render. This explains why you may not see the error in a render one day, then you save that scene and come back to it a day later and suddenly the error appears.


Solution


I'm not a programmer, so I have to figure these issues out through trial and error, but I can say through testing that these shell meshes need to stack at minimum of .0035 above the parent object to ensure no mesh crossing, and then an additional minimum of .005 between stacked shells.


Technically, .001 works fine, in the T pose, but when you pose the figure mesh crossing will appear.


For example, if the first level shell, let's say Body Blush, is at .0045, the next level shell (example Breastacualr Areola Shell) needs to be at adjusted to .0095, and then we want to make the figure wet, so we have to adjust the USM wet shell up to .0105. Ideally these would be .005, .01 and .015, possibly a little higher if you're using HD figures at subdivision 3 or higher. On something like the wet shell however, you don't want it TOO far offset or it can create "float shadows" that make drops look like they're not actually on the skin, which breaks the effect. For this reason, you want to avoid stacking too many shells.


I'm working on a few projects, Body Blush update being one of those, and in the process I'm going to make a simple, freebie "Shell Stacker" product that will just be some 1-click shell offset settings that "should" work on any shell. While this is something most users can easily adjust for themselves in the parameters tab, there's no harm in just making a quick freebie people can use on the fly. ;)


Another example of shell conflict is in the beautiful "Nylon Stockings for Genesis 3 and 8 Females" product at DAZ. I use this all the time, but a recent update has changed the offset of the "Glossy Shell" to .001, which is WAY too close, and causes the shell to regularly glitch into the stocking. Changing this offset to .005 or higher fixes the problem. :)


 


So there it is. Most people probably haven't even encountered this, because how often do you really stack a bunch of shells? But when it happens and you don't understand why it's happening it's really frustrating and causes hours of tinkering to figure out what the heck is going on. :)


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haruchai on 10/6/2021(UTC)
Thunder-3D  
#2 Posted : Tuesday, May 25, 2021 11:57:00 AM(UTC)
Thunder-3D

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One other thing to keep in mind.


I ALWAYS recommend, and do in practice, create a separate save of every character I create. This save never gets overwritten, and any time I change something on the character, I save a new version of the file, not overwrite the old file.


Why?


Files get corrupted, often, in very small ways.


If you follow the above and you still get mesh crossing, you've likely been re-saving a scene file over and over, continually re-writing the file. This is fine for scene files you're working with short term, but long term if you're using the same scene file for months, the figures in that scene file will start to get corrupted along with their wearables.


Always keep clean, unaltered versions of the following:


Scenery or a base Scene File.
This should include anything that is NOT the characters. All the stuff that's going on in the background or objects they are interacting with. Not necessary if you're not modifying scenery and just using the default scene as provided by a vendor. Personally I alter everything o_O


The figure, without any wearables.
Save as a Scene Subset file that can be dropped into a fresh, new scene as a fresh new character. This file is most important that it not be overwritten, this is your fallback to reload the character if the version of the character in your scene file gets buggy.


Wearables File
A separate Wearables save of their outfit, this can include Geografts and shells. Always make this save file with the figure in the T (default) pose.


 


Studio doesn't really educate you on the different file formats and new users usually have to figure these things out for themselves. Knowing you can save all this stuff separately saves you a LOT of headaches later on. :)


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Akirael on 7/5/2021(UTC)
lookingforguds  
#3 Posted : Monday, October 4, 2021 9:22:28 AM(UTC)
lookingforguds

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Joined: 9/25/2021(UTC)
Posts: 3

I am not sure, if this solution solves my problem. 
I am very new to Daz (like a week in playing around with it and I have really no idea what I am doing) 


I use breastacular (follow the steps, everything looks good and fine), I use golden palace on the same figure (follow the steps and everything is fine) but the use of golden palace makes the breasts white and "glassy". I tried everything, follow shell fix and all but they stay glassy.

I managed one time on one character to get both working (saved it as a wearable and load it on other characters... but that can't be the way) and I don't know how I did it.
Can anyone guide me through the steps?

And if the solution in this thread might help, where can I change those geoshell distances as suggested?

If this is the wrong thread, sorry - it's my first day (- Homer Simpson)

Edited by user Monday, October 4, 2021 9:49:56 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Thunder-3D  
#4 Posted : Monday, October 4, 2021 7:01:02 PM(UTC)
Thunder-3D

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Originally Posted by: lookingforguds Go to Quoted Post


I am not sure, if this solution solves my problem. 
I am very new to Daz (like a week in playing around with it and I have really no idea what I am doing) 


I use breastacular (follow the steps, everything looks good and fine), I use golden palace on the same figure (follow the steps and everything is fine) but the use of golden palace makes the breasts white and "glassy". I tried everything, follow shell fix and all but they stay glassy.

I managed one time on one character to get both working (saved it as a wearable and load it on other characters... but that can't be the way) and I don't know how I did it.
Can anyone guide me through the steps?

And if the solution in this thread might help, where can I change those geoshell distances as suggested?

If this is the wrong thread, sorry - it's my first day (- Homer Simpson)



Select each shell and run the "shell fix" script in the golden palace main folder. It looks like a little broom. In my experience all the shell fix scripts by Meipe work to fix the white areas on any of the other Meipe shells, and occasionally other shells. You need to periodically check your Meipe products in the Renderotica Downloads because he's always updating and improving products, this also goes for the shell fix scripts.


If this does not fix the issue (or if it does) please respond here and I'll help you further, but I think from what you've described, you just need to run shell fix :)


 


Long version:


The reason you usually get white-out over certain grafts, is that if you load a shelled graft like Golden Palace AFTER loading something like Breastacular, the shell is applied automagically knowing that it needs to switch the area over Breastacular to "off".


If you load Golden Palace and its shell FIRST, the shell has no way to automatically update when you load Breastacular, and just shows the default "white plastic" material. This is why Meipe provides the shell fix script, to update the shells AFTER all other grafts are applied :)


This is also the reason I recommend only applying the Ultimate Skin Moisture shell AFTER all the grafts you will use in the render have already been applied, and also recommend you delete and re-apply Ultimate Skin Moisture shell after adding a new graft to the character. :)


 


EDIT: The offset distance can be found in the Parameters Tab, when you have the shell selected in the Scene Tab. :)

BrimstoneOmega  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, October 5, 2021 3:57:45 PM(UTC)
BrimstoneOmega

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If you're still having trouble with the graphts you can check the link in my signature, it's also in the readme for GP. It explains what geografts are, how they work (in a basic form, just so you can understand what's actually going on with them), and shows ways to fix things manually in case you're still having issues even after the fixes.

It's kinda a rough video, but it's helped a lot of people.
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Thunder-3D on 10/5/2021(UTC)
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