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We don't have a president in the US, we have a Slum Lord.

Originally Posted by: SnarltheWerewolf

As a NY'r, I can't say I really love Cuomo as a Governor. He's been great for somethings, horrifying for others. But jesus, the night and day difference between his Covid-19 updates and Trump's are night and day. Cuomo's are long and factual and do not gloss over the good or bad of the situation. Trump's look like Mel Brooks took a Xanax and tried to write a short comedy and failed.

It's been good to hear his updates and focus on what's happening, whether it's good or bad.

Hey Snarl How are you doing, are you safe. I did not know you were a New Yorker, and our premiere here in Ontario is like your governor, wasn't worth a sh_t, until this all happened and he has actually been up front and clear from day one. And he unfortunately had to go and fight with trumps sycophants, just to get some n95 masks. I just came back from a walk and i wore my mask and gloves, shock, and disappointment with people gathering in large groups, not wearing any kind of protection acting like nothing is happening. Would love to see some of these people live in NYNY for one day, bet they go looking for a body condom. So Snarl take care of yourself and don't go out unless you have to.

The three likeliest scenarios IMO:

1) The virus originated from the wet market. The Chinese have some appalling culinary and sanitation habits, and this has happened before as a result, so this would be very easy to believe. (Don't take my word for it -- you can find the photos and videos easily enough on your own.) People should not be eating deep-fried bats and munching on live frogs and baby mice (among other things), for God's sake.

2) The virus escaped from one of the two labs close to Wuhan. Several lab workers (including the head researcher of bat-borne viruses there) have gone missing. The Chinese initially denied the existence of these individuals, but they also forgot to scrub their bios from the research institutes websites, and then had to admit that yes, they HAD worked there but were now unaccounted for. (But they also claim that these researchers were in perfect health the last time anyone saw them -- swearsies.) It's very likely that -- however it occurred -- these individuals died from their exposure, and that the medical and funerary staff who attended to them were not warned about the cause of their illness and were themselves exposed, going on to expose even more people completely unaware that they were contagious. Also, all lab specimens are supposed to be incinerated, but apparently it's an open secret that some lab workers in China make extra money on the side by supplying the local markets with fresh meat, and that they do so without revealing the source of that meat and the fact that it may contain pathogens.

3) The virus was intentionally released. I find this scenario to be the least likely, but only because of where the virus first struck. If the virus HAD been intentionally released, then I would think it would have been released somewhere in the West, given that it appeared after the trade war between Washington and Beijing was really starting to put the pressure on China. However it began, the Chinese have now seen the damage they can cause to Western societies and their economies with even a relatively mild pathogen such as this. This may become a terrifying new form of bargaining strategy. So what if the Chinese lose 10K to 100K or more of their own citizens (keeping in mind that the Chinese Communists machine-gun their own citizens and run them over with tanks for daring to demand political reform) if they can cripple their political, military, and economic rivals worldwide with one relatively inexpensive and easy-to-engineer outbreak.

Now, having said all of that, I should also say that I'm personally not very worried about this particular bug. I'm over fifty (and I'm starting to feel it), so yeah, I'm concerned and I take common sense precautions, but I'm also trying to keep some perspective. For example, 90% of those who died in Italy were over 70 years old with one or more contributing health issues, like heart disease, diabetes, etc. The two youngest who died were both 39: one was a cancer patient going through chemo, and the other was a diabetic with multiple other issues.

The models that are being used to justify the shut-downs and stay-in-place orders are wildly overestimating the infection rate and mortality. For example, by now, New York state was supposed to have nearly 12K hospitalized -- the actual number is about 2,100. Tennessee was supposed to have about 7,500 hospitalized -- the actual number is about 1,200. What I'm not seeing is whether these are worst-case or best-case numbers -- that is, are these numbers what we would see WITH or WITHOUT the shut-down, so I'm going to assume that they're worst-case estimates and are proof that the shut-down is working to slow the infection rate.

What's also apparent is that there is no cut-and-dried standard for determining what is and what isn't a COVID-related death. At this point, it's looking like if a body tests positive for the virus -- regardless of how that individual actually died (eaten by a bear, struck by lighting, horrible car crash, etc.) -- it's still being counted as a virus-related death. For example, there were two infant deaths that occurred in the last week or so that are being counted as caused by the virus. However, the first baby had a bowel blockage and had been hospitalized for a month prior to the outbreak, and so was susceptible to just about any bug that might be passing through. The second infant death is even worse: this one was initially counted as COVID-related death (in Connecticut, I believe), and then it came out that the baby had accidentally been suffocated by its care-giver, and that this was KNOWN at the time of death, and yet it was still recorded as a COVID-related fatality, presumably on the fact (or even just belief) that the body tested positive for the virus. (It also just so happens that that Governor had been asking for additional federal dollars to deal with the situation and so had a financial motive to inflate his state's mortality statistics, but that might just be a coincidence.)

Personally, I think the whole situation is a hysterical over-reaction completely out-of-proportion to the actual danger.

Edited by user Tuesday, April 7, 2020 8:12:46 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

The funny thing about orientals and especially those in power. The thought of making a mistake, or embarrasing ones self and doing damage to others is a Loss of FACE.  This is why you see so many orientals resign their important posts or are in some ways forced to drop out of sight from their actions.

To most orientals Loss of FACE is hard to own up to and so they will try to hide it, or in some cases delay it to see if they can fix the problem before it becomes public and then, if they are in power, try to blame it on someone else or create a scape goat. because once you Loose Face, it is very hard to recover it. and be seen in a favorable light.

So I can easily see wht their was a delay in reporting this because to a Government on a whole to loose the respect of the world is something that must be avoided at all cost.  I truly believe more than lives have been lost in China than reported. to show the world you cannot solve your own problems displays weakness and that too is a Loss of Face.

One would think in todays world of social media, and nothing can be kept secret for too long..  they Chinese would know that by now.  Past outbreaks of disease that originated in China  have always leak out to the world... But cultural beliefs run deep so they keep making the same Mistakes

In our city, Law Enforcement has begun issuing citations for being outside without purpose, exercise (by yourself is OK,  but in a group..  that is a no no., if you are out driving without a reason to do so, you will be cited and that is a $1000 fine.  As one of the 10 most populous cities in the United States. (some of that due to our Navy and Marine presecne  we have had less than 3 dozen deaths  3 dozen too many and many are seniors but we are seeing the virus hit Law Enforcement officers with several deaths..

Stay safe and well folks

Regards  Shadoman

Originally Posted by: rbug02

we extrapolated that the real numbers were much higher than the 3,333 that they claim, it is more closer to 100,000.

Nobody trusts anything China says, except for maybe the WHO (World Health Organization) and the U.N. (who just put China on the Human Rights Commission, for God's sake). I hope to God Trump follows through on his statement about withdrawing U.S. support from the WHO -- fuckers parroted China's statements way early in the outbreak about there being no proof of human-to-human transmission, and the guy running the WHO was the third ranking member of a marxist revolutionary group that took power in Etheopia and covered up several outbreaks of cholera, leading to much unnecessary suffering and many otherwise preventable deaths, so you  can see a pattern emerging here. If China is reporting no new infections, it's likely that it's only because they stopped testing for it or stopped reporting the numbers. We're now getting reports that they're actually cremating older patients alive rather than waste time and resources trying to treat them. (https://www.breitbart.com/asia/2020/04/07/report-wuhan-funeral-homes-burned-people-alive/)

Originally Posted by: rbug02

I would hope that even China would not let something this devastating loose on the world.

You hope that that the same people who intentionally oppressed, imprisoned, starved, tortured, shot, and squashed their own people with tanks would not intentionally infect the rest of the world with a plague?

Well, if anything, this has been an eye opener.  We as a nation on the federal and personal level really weren't prepared for this.  Imagine if there was a major volcanic eruption of Yellowstone or Mt Ranier, or a nuclear/EMP strike on a major city.  Imagine if this Covid-19 had a 100% mortality rate, I mean if you got it you died, period.   I hope people become more personally prepared in the future and don't slide back into complacency.

Originally Posted by: davo

Well, if anything, this has been an eye opener.  We as a nation on the federal and personal level really weren't prepared for this.  Imagine if there was a major volcanic eruption of Yellowstone or Mt Ranier, or a nuclear/EMP strike on a major city.  Imagine if this Covid-19 had a 100% mortality rate, I mean if you got it you died, period.   I hope people become more personally prepared in the future and don't slide back into complacency.

Actually, there are a lot of positive take-aways from all of this. You're going to be seeing a lot more nations take a harder stance on controlling their borders and the flow of travelers and immigrants into their territory -- not good for the E.U. (And anything bad for the E.U. has got to be good for national sovereignty and personal liberty.) People who would ordinarily never have given it a shot are now home-schooling their kids, and I think a lot of them will stick with it afterwards, meaning that this current crop of kids will hopefully not be as stupid and gullible as the previous bunch turned out to be. Gun sales are spiking as many people suddenly realize that the Second Amendment actually is still relevant and want to arm up to defend themselves, their property, and their communities. It'll be interesting to see if prepper culture experiences a resurgence after all this. I think you'll also be seeing -- if not an actual pull-back from China -- then at least a duplication of critical manufacturing back here at home (especially of pharmaceuticals and medical supplies) in order to minimize reliance on China. Oh, and the U.N. has been complaining that member states haven't been paying their dues and it's in a financial tight spot -- cry me a fucking river, U.N. And finally -- with all of the industry and business shut-downs and nobody driving anywhere -- the market for carbon credits has imploded.

Edited by user Wednesday, April 8, 2020 7:44:10 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Originally Posted by: simontemplar

I think you might have misread me, somehow, Dareshinaru. Either that, or you're taking shortcuts to have the last word, just because I am not being nice to a certain guy.
I never said that Trump cooked up the virus, so no need to be preposterous here. To make it clear: I don't give a shit about politics. I say that both for your benefit and that
of our kind moderators. This has nothing to do with who is a good or a bad leader and if they should be reelected or not and doodah. So we can leave that in the backroom.
I'm talking about seeing what's right under one's nose.

The timeline here is crucial: if China had been the only country hit by "Corona-chan" then, of course, Mr Trump and all his head of state fellows all over the world would have
had only doctored numbers from the Chinese government who, we know that from the SARS episode, lie through their teeth in such situations. That would have been very little
to go on with and it could have led to honest mistakes. However... when several developed countries start to see their hospitals filled with the very sick and their morgues filled
with the very dead in such a short period of time, all because of that one single virus... it's a bloody worldwide pandemic you've got there. You don't go and say "Duh, it's
nothing, I made America great again and a couple cold pills will do." You don't downplay such a thing. You don't lie through your teeth saying to the press that a vaccine will
be ready in less than a month, either. And when things really start to stink, you don't try to buy off an experimental vaccine from a german lab *as an exclusive to the USA.
What's with the selfish attitude? It doesn't even make sense in the long run. Same with buying off the masks produced in China and already ordered by other countries, straight
on the tarmac and thrice the price. Dude, go in the line and wait for your turn. Those last two examples don't just show that Trump has bad manners, they reek of panic reaction
from a guy who knows he messed up and it doesn't paint a pretty image of the man.

That said, some other leaders have been/are being just as dumb. Look at Johnson and Löfven: their faith in "herd immunity" is downright criminal too. Johnson has since
changed gears, too late of course, but the Swedish folly carries on. Brazil? Bolsonaro is still in denial. None of this is biding well for our future, there is no denying it. I am not
happy either about how things got handled in my own country, don't worry. The response was there, but way, way too slow. Also, people lack discipline. Just yesterday, morons
were flocking in Nice and Paris. Facepalm activated.
What saddens me the most? Once this subsides, and I hope it does soon, we will have learnt... NOTHING. Just wait and watch. The "good old habits" will quickly take over once
again. We haven't learnt from war and we won't learn from pestilence, so, indeed, these are not Good Omens (sorry, couldn't resist).
 

I was replying to rather a lot of folks at once there dude, not simply you. Apparently it has escaped your notice that there are a great many individuals and organizations who've made every effort to downplay, distort or downright lie about just about every single thing the damn man has done. No, he's not a saint. He's bombastic and vainglorious. He tweets like a twelve year old. But somehow despite all that he manages to be effective. Probably because he ran construction in NYC for decades. That has to be one of the toughest cities to get large construction projects accomplished in anywhere, so he must have learned something. That you don't like his manners or his haircut or the fact that he seems to use a spray on tan is scarcely relevant to that. Herd immunity is a thing, look it up. I make no pretense to be an epidemiologist, but I can understand basic concepts and honestly, these aren't that complex. 

And here, though Snopes is hardly a bastion of truth and accuracy in fact-checking I offer you this tidbit: https://www.snopes.com/news/2020/03/17/trump-poach-coronavirus-vaccine/ Which would dispute at least one of your claims. Perhaps you might choose to rethink some others, but I'm inclined to believe you won't.

For Shadowman I offer a question. Do you honestly see no difference between California and New York? Did it escape YOUR notice that NYC is one of if not the most populous and most densely populated cities in NA? Not to mention their reliance upon public transportation? If those two factors are not magnifying vectors of transmission I don't know what would be. And how are you enjoying Cholera, Typhoid and Typhus? Some nice 3rd world diseases you've got there. Has something to do with the average almost 130,000 daily homeless that can't (aren't able, it isn't their fault for the most part) follow proper sanitization guidelines. I just wonder how many of them have Covid-19 and aren't yet known or cared about.

This last bit is for whoever suggested succession. Sure California could succede, enjoy having no water. I'm sure Colorado and Arizona and Nevada will enjoy getting their water rights back. 

Originally Posted by: ProtocolZero

Originally Posted by: davo

Well, if anything, this has been an eye opener.  We as a nation on the federal and personal level really weren't prepared for this.  Imagine if there was a major volcanic eruption of Yellowstone or Mt Ranier, or a nuclear/EMP strike on a major city.  Imagine if this Covid-19 had a 100% mortality rate, I mean if you got it you died, period.   I hope people become more personally prepared in the future and don't slide back into complacency.

 

Actually, there are a lot of positive take-aways from all of this. You're going to be seeing a lot more nations take a harder stance on controlling their borders and the flow of travelers and immigrants into their territory -- not good for the E.U. (And anything bad for the E.U. has got to be good for national sovereignty and personal liberty.) People who would ordinarily never have given it a shot are now home-schooling their kids, and I think a lot of them will stick with it afterwards, meaning that this current crop of kids will hopefully not be as stupid and gullible as the previous bunch turned out to be. Gun sales are spiking as many people suddenly realize that the Second Amendment actually is still relevant and want to arm up to defend themselves, their property, and their communities. It'll be interesting to see if prepper culture experiences a resurgence after all this. I think you'll also be seeing -- if not an actual pull-back from China -- then at least a duplication of critical manufacturing back here at home (especially of pharmaceuticals and medical supplies) in order to minimize reliance on China. Oh, and the U.N. has been complaining that member states haven't been paying their dues and it's in a financial tight spot -- cry me a fucking river, U.N. And finally -- with all of the industry and business shut-downs and nobody driving anywhere -- the market for carbon credits has imploded.

Kind of interesting. Though if Yellowstone erupted it would be a little more exciting. It would kill people states away and send the world into a nuclear winter. Apparently Supervolcanos do that sort of thing. A plain, vanilla eruption would be something that could be dealt with. They happen often enough. A nuked city would be bad for that city. Now nukes from orbit to EMP the country - that would be SHTF bad everywhere. But there are all kinds of ways things can go bad, big and little. You can't go worrying about all of them all the time. After all, the goal of all life is death. We just try to replicate first.

For Shadowman I offer a question. Do you honestly see no difference between California and New York? Did it escape YOUR notice that NYC is one of if not the most populous and most densely populated cities in NA? Not to mention their reliance upon public transportation? If those two factors are not magnifying vectors of transmission I don't know what would be. And how are you enjoying Cholera, Typhoid and Typhus? Some nice 3rd world diseases you've got there. Has something to do with the average almost 130,000 daily homeless that can't (aren't able, it isn't their fault for the most part) follow proper sanitization guidelines. I just wonder how many of them have Covid-19 and aren't yet known or cared about.

This last bit is for whoever suggested succession. Sure California could succede, enjoy having no water. I'm sure Colorado and Arizona and Nevada will enjoy getting their water rights back. 

I can understand your POV,  NYC has a population 8.6 Million compared with Los Angeles that is half that amount.  Yes you do have more mass transit with fewer cars on the island of Manhatten and the other sections of the city.  For you Covid 19 came from the EU nations while we got the virus directly from Chine South Korea and Taiwan.. My point was to make light of how fast the Governor of California acted and how we have thousand of beds in readiness for make shift ready rooms in our main convention center.

As to homeless   no doubt the west coast of the country seems to thrive in a homeless population, For the most part that is due to the warmer climate but we have taken entire homeless families in San Diego county and put them up in unused Motel rooms.  The homeless who have no families are housed at several shelters in town, with cots placed 6 feet apart. We are doing our best to keep the disease from spreading throughout the whole state and high traffic international terminals like Los Angeles whose populations is half that of NYC with a Navy Hospital ship in our harbors just like NYC

Cholera, Typhoid and Typhus??   really ??  I think we see more cases of legionair disease  compared to those major illnesses that have not been around for decades.

The NYC area does need help, and California has sent ventelators to the city as a gesture that we feel for a fellow city in need,  Just wish the guy in washington felt the same way.

As to succeeding from the Nation.  California could do it   We have the resources to build desalination plants or drinking water and to irrigate our farms and vineyards,  Did you know that other than Las Vegas. California obtains vast revenues from Compacts with Indian gaming.  As to Colorado water. That river shares state borders and to cut it off at the source would deprive Nevada ability to generate current for its states

Hell it might catch on so much that we could make it the entire west coast and ask Oregon and Washington state to join us.

Look all things aside. NYC is hurting and like most folks in California we do feel for those people but you can't fault us because our Governor and high populations city mayors Jumped in weeks before anyone else did and started to take precautions so that places like Los Angeles, San Diego, San Jose, San Francisco and Sacremento, keep the lid on Covid 19 spreading

Regards  Shadoman  No 'W"