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Hopefully my last question for awhile. All at once trying to do and use a bunch of things I haven't before.
I suspect the answer’s going to be that this is just how it is and there isn't a solution, but just in case I'm missing the obvious or doing something stupid (both likely given the brain fog side effects of some of the meds I have to take for my disability) ...
I'm trying to finish setting up a scene which includes, amongst other things, a Genesis 8.1 Female character who is gripping one of her (small) breasts hard enough that her fingers are pressing into the flesh. Now, I would be very happy to use 'her own' breasts (i.e. the G8.1F ones) in every way but one: if I put the hidden glove from the Breastacular product on her hand, and set it to collide with her - the G8.1F figure - I get the fingers pressing into her breast flesh OK but her fingers swell up. (I also tried with a similar glove from another creator, and with that her fingers crumple up.) This puzzles me as presumably the glove is a bit bigger than the hand so collision shouldn't be happening between glove and hand, let alone forcing thee hand to swell out
But this happening means I have to use Breastacular instead of her 'own' breasts ... which gets the finger dents with no swollen fingers but has its own issues as Breastacular doesn't properly support some of the morphs used in the character, and especially the FBMFreja8, FBMFreja8Bulk and FBM Freja8HD morphs. This really limits the viewpoints from which I can render.
Is there no way to have the hidden glove not affect the hand wearing it while still colliding with that same figure?
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In order to do what you're trying to do, the glove would have to be set to collide with G8.1. It can't differentiate between the hand and the breast, so it's colliding with all of them, I'm guessing. So yes, that's just the way it s.
I'd try a different route, but it's going to take some time to get the effect you want. That route is mesh grabber available over at DAZ. It's a great tool and with a little practice and patience, can yield some impressive results.
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Originally Posted by: matt 
In order to do what you're trying to do, the glove would have to be set to collide with G8.1. It can't differentiate between the hand and the breast, so it's colliding with all of them, I'm guessing. So yes, that's just the way it s.
/quote]
Yes, but the glove is round the outside of the hand. I could understand it shrinking the hand IN, so away from the glove (which is what happens with a similar glove from a different vendor), but why is it making the hand swell OUT with Meipe's hidden glove? Surely that would need the glove to be INSIDE the hand?
Hm - what would happen if I apply a push modifier?
Back in the day (i.e. 2005, the last time I did a sex render, back using DS2, I think, and the figures were a very modified SP3 and D3!) I'd just have used D-Formers - one on each finger tip. Maybe I should do that. Or ... I suppose I could put little invisible spheres where the fingertips are and use them as the collision objects. Thing is, I'm getting the finger indents using Breastacular pretty much OK, and with this particular render the main issues with Breastacular not matching the main body morphs I'm using in G8.1F are not visible given the angle the camera is at, but I've got issues with Breastacular's nipples - the tips are pointed hard-edged cones (ouch!)
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I can't really answer as to the specifics of the swelling, that's new, unless you've got some invisible clipping. I haven't tried to use collision on a non-collision item before. But, I'd try mesh grabber, or like you said, d-formers. Breastacular is great for big boobs, but small ones create their own set of issues.
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I worked on the original BTacular with Meipe back in the day. He did all the product work and I did a lot of testing and suggestions for features.
I've seen the swelling fingers/arms thing before and that can be caused by accidentally adding collision to the gloves themselves. They are not supposed to have collision/smoothing set to "on".
Making sure collision is "off" on the gloves should fix the finger swelling.
If it doesn't, make sure the character itself isn't set to collide with the gloves, in fact the character shouldn't be set to collide with anything usually.
The brestacular graft should be set to collide with the gloves only.
There are several clickable settings included to adjust the way BTacular collides with the gloves, but the default usually gives the best results.
For deeper "squishing" of the fingers into the breasts, there are sliders on the gloves that adjust the gloves thickness. You can expand the fingers or the entire hands, in width or depth. This enhances the appearance of the displacement "squish" and allows you to push the hands and fingers deeper into BTacular.
Hope that helps :)
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It's confusing and frustrating me just because I don't understand it at all, which is irritating. I've made the hidden glove visisble but tranparent just to see - it's outside the hand and fingers as expected. But if I set the glove to collide with G8.1F, both as it is default and if I use its adjustment morphs or add a push modifier to make the glove even bigger, the hand swells to fit the glove. Why? G8.1F isn't fitted to the glove. Even if the collision applies when the glove isn't touching the hand it should push the hand and fingers IN, not out. It's totally bizarre.
I've a number of ways of getting what I want for the render, including options I'd forgotten I had. There's 'Grasp Helper', which I've never used and would mean moving from DS6 to DS4 for the scripts to work, Then there's 'LBG Soft Body Solution: G8F Chest', which also works on Breastacular via auto-follow if I dial its morphs in G8.1F, which let me dial in dips to the depth I want at 100s of points all over the breast, so I can dial a dip at the closest point to the finger then just adjust the finger pose to go into the dip. D-Formers. Mesh Grabber would mean switching to DS 4 again. Oh - I got that 'Scuplt Tool' recently, which does work in DS6 as well as 4, and is like Mesh Grabber but supposed to be better: forgot about that (disability medication side effect, my memory is shockingly bad both long term and moment to moment). The Scultp Tool smoothing brush should probably let me fix the discontinuity between the bottom of Breastacular and the morphed G8.1F body if I do a render where that's visible (this is one render in a series telling a story, and as it's from her POV looking along her body as she's lying down, that part below the breasts isn't visible in this one). Actually I don't want to use smoothing on G8.1F, as she's a visibly fit and muscular woman, and turning on the figure's smoothing causes her muscle definition to soften from how I wanted it. Using Breastacular, with none of its morphs applied, from the POV the breastacular breasts, auto-following the sttings In G8.1F could still be her small breasts, and the collision is pressing the fingers into teh breast flesh fine. The issue is that for some unknown reason her nipples have tips have become cones with a harsh lower edge and coming to a point, and I don't know why. If I can just fix her nipple tips, either with the breastacular or auto-followed G8.1F morphs - and now I've remembered I have the Scultp Tool ... all will be good.
But I just want to understand why the hand was swelling to fit the hidden glove, even if I don't need/want to use that. It's really bugging me.
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Originally Posted by: Thunder-3D
I've seen the swelling fingers/arms thing before and that can be caused by accidentally adding collision to the gloves themselves. They are not supposed to have collision/smoothing set to "on".
Making sure collision is "off" on the gloves should fix the finger swelling.
No, I haven't added smoothing to the glove so there's no collision setting in it.
Quote:
If it doesn't, make sure the character itself isn't set to collide with the gloves, in fact the character shouldn't be set to collide with anything usually.
The brestacular graft should be set to collide with the gloves only.
Well I did have the character set to collide with the gloves in an attempt to avoid using Breastacular due to issues with Breastacular not supporting main morphs I'm using in the character. (Typically, almost every G9 female product supports Freja9, whereas almost nothing supports Freja8, but it's a Freja8 morphed G8.1F - along with other morphs - I'm using, and Meipe seems to have added custom Breastacular morphs for every main G8F character figure apart from Freja8.) And with G8.1F set to collide with the glove, it produced very good finger impressions in her own breasts. But it gave her the swollen hand (and smoothed the rest of her body in ways that weren't ideal).
I'm now exploring other solutions, but it is still bugging me, even if i don't use it. WHY the figure's hands swell to fit the hidden glove - and swell more if i expand the hidden glove - if the figure is set to collide with the glove. The glove is completely outside the hand and fingers, so any 'collision' effect should compress hand and fingers, not make them swell out. I just don't get why that happens.
Quote:
There are several clickable settings included to adjust the way BTacular collides with the gloves, but the default usually gives the best results.
For deeper "squishing" of the fingers into the breasts, there are sliders on the gloves that adjust the gloves thickness. You can expand the fingers or the entire hands, in width or depth. This enhances the appearance of the displacement "squish" and allows you to push the hands and fingers deeper into BTacular.
Hope that helps :)
Thanks. I've managed to get the finger depressions I want on Breastacular. The problem is Breastacular's poor fit to the (quite muscular and small breasted) figure, and what it's done to her nipples!
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(There is another reason that I'm really trying to avoid using Breastacular. My character is quite hairy, and I'm using a lightBLUE Natural Golden Growler and a Curly Golden Growler for her pubic hair. But they both fit to a Golden Palace shell, and when I add Breastacular, that's fine ... until I save the scene, then later re-load it. Immediately on loading the two growlers refuse stay fitted to the Golden Palace shell, won't re-fit, and object that the object fitted to is different from the one they are designed to fit. I then have to: delete Breastacular, for both hairs fit them to the GP shell (which they will now do after Breastacular's gone), then turn the Apply Transforms back on both, select G8.1F, reload Breastacular, run the MAT Copy again, run the shell fix script again, run the UV fix script again (I'm using G8F Basic UV materials). Every blasted time I reload a scene/WIP where she has both the Growlers and Breastacular applied to her. If I could use the Growler Pros it wouldn't be a problem, but the Growler Pros are not the equivalent of the Growlers, and aren't as extensively hairy - this her-POV render you can see a bit of the top of the Growlers, but can't see any of the Growler Pros at all. Grrrrrrr.) As usual - in fact as always - the things I want to use have compatability problems wiith each other. So, especially as the character has relatively small breasts - which Freja8's are in the base, but then I make them smaller, as this character's at about 12% bodyfat - she's a gym instuctor amongst other things - and definitely would NOT have implants, and even as one of the rare women who doesn't lose fat from the tits first when getting lean she's pushing it to still have (just) B-cups, I really don't want to use Breastacular if I can avoid it.)
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Originally Posted by: DavidGB (There is another reason that I'm really trying to avoid using Breastacular. My character is quite hairy, and I'm using a lightBLUE Natural Golden Growler and a Curly Golden Growler for her pubic hair. But they both fit to a Golden Palace shell, and when I add Breastacular, that's fine ... until I save the scene, then later re-load it. Immediately on loading the two growlers refuse stay fitted to the Golden Palace shell, won't re-fit, and object that the object fitted to is different from the one they are designed to fit. I then have to: delete Breastacular, for both hairs fit them to the GP shell (which they will now do after Breastacular's gone), then turn the Apply Transforms back on both, select G8.1F, reload Breastacular, run the MAT Copy again, run the shell fix script again, run the UV fix script again (I'm using G8F Basic UV materials). Every blasted time I reload a scene/WIP where she has both the Growlers and Breastacular applied to her. If I could use the Growler Pros it wouldn't be a problem, but the Growler Pros are not the equivalent of the Growlers, and aren't as extensively hairy - this her-POV render you can see a bit of the top of the Growlers, but can't see any of the Growler Pros at all. Grrrrrrr.) As usual - in fact as always - the things I want to use have compatability problems wiith each other. So, especially as the character has relatively small breasts - which Freja8's are in the base, but then I make them smaller, as this character's at about 12% bodyfat - she's a gym instuctor amongst other things - and definitely would NOT have implants, and even as one of the rare women who doesn't lose fat from the tits first when getting lean she's pushing it to still have (just) B-cups, I really don't want to use Breastacular if I can avoid it.)
Set up the character with the growler the way you want it to be in your renders
Make a wearables save of just the shells and the growler and whatever else seems to break on reload
Next time you reload the scene, if the growler isn't lined up, delete the items that aren't working and re-apply using the wearables save you made
I know it's a wierd workaround but sounds like your best bet.
Unfortunately you're trying to use the BT kit in a way it wasn't designed to work. The gloves were designed to interact with BT as a separate graft.
We tried hard to make something that would collide with the whole figure mesh but it just never worked, it's a software limitation we just couldn't get around.
Meipe may have more info or a different workaround, I just know that in testing and development we never got the gloves to properly collide with the body, which required making the breasts into a graft.
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Originally Posted by: Thunder-3D
Set up the character with the growler the way you want it to be in your renders
Make a wearables save of just the shells and the growler and whatever else seems to break on reload
Next time you reload the scene, if the growler isn't lined up, delete the items that aren't working and re-apply using the wearables save you made
I know it's a wierd workaround but sounds like your best bet.
Thanks for this. I had assumed if it couldn't survive a whole scene save, other saves wouldn't preserve it either, and given what shells are I didn't think they could be saved as the 'base' of a wearable. I'm now not using breastacular, and without that in the scene the pubic hair re-loads OK from the saved scene, but this may well turn out to be useful when some other problem arises, which I'm sure it will.
Quote:
Unfortunately you're trying to use the BT kit in a way it wasn't designed to work. The gloves were designed to interact with BT as a separate graft.
Using products in ways they weren't designed to work is the story of all of my use of DS (and briefly Poser) ever since I started in early 2004, through to when I stopped after becoming disabled in 2007 (apart from trying to keep up on the developments, new content etc but without producing anything until recently). Many other people look at what they have, or something new they want to get, and then come up with something to render using it. Unfortunatelly I've been a writer/storyteller since i was little, I start with a story - visually - popping into my head with no concern for my content library, and I then have to figure out what bits of content I can hack around how to replicaate what i'm seeing in my head. Right when I started, with Poser 4 but switching to the DS 0.9 Beta Public Release the day that was released, I wanted to do renders of a particular 'pre-existing' female character (not the one I'm doing at the moment), who had proper real world proportions - which Victoria 3 didn't, and you couldn't scale different body parts back then without any clothes or other conformers exploding on posing - and she was a particular size and build and needed certain clothes; and within a couple of weeks I was learning how to read, then hack, Poser format Cr2 and obj files (which were what DAZ used to until the release of DS4 and DSON format files) until I had a Stephanie Petite 3 figure with Victoria 3's head, and with and morphs stolen from V3 and David 3. Then I had to start manually converting, including cr2 and obj hacking in a text editor, clothes from David 3 (easy) and Victoria 3, Michael 3 and even Micharl 2. And this was before the days of clothing converters, morph transferrers and all the things we have now. I became good enough at reading cr2s, pp2s and objs in text editors and spotting oddities, by 2005 I'd become the guy in the DAZ forums who'd figure out why various products from R'oisty and here didn't work for people in DS, and would find the problem, a fix or workaround, and make detailed bug reports to DAZ - and then people in DAZ tech support and even one of the progam devs started asking me to look into problems. I ended up spending so much time doing that almost the only renders I did were of exploding problematic content, then a matching one of it working in DS to show I had found the problem.
And I hardly ever used a figure, clothing, scenery or prop without hacking its mesh around, editing the Cr2/PP2 and editing the textures. So the fact I'm trying to use something in ways it's not supposed to be used as a way of doing soemthing I can' t otherwise do but need to is not unusual.
Quote:
We tried hard to make something that would collide with the whole figure mesh but it just never worked, it's a software limitation we just couldn't get around.
Meipe may have more info or a different workaround, I just know that in testing and development we never got the gloves to properly collide with the body, which required making the breasts into a graft.
I wasn't meaning to complain. It's partly asking to see if I'm missing something obvious or being stupid - both very likely as I'm permenently stuck on medications with side effects of having me permanently in a brain fog, only a very limited ability to think coherently, and with a largely non-functioning memory, both long term and moment to moment. And partly to see if there were known workarounds for these issues.
Plus it is just really bugging me as I simply don't understand how the glove can be making the hand swell. The glove is all outside the hand, and the hand - the G8.1F - is not conformed/fitted to or should be auto-following the glove. But it swells out to the size of the glove, and if the glove is morphed out or enlarged with a push modifier the hand swells further out to match it. This is just bugging me outside and beyond my wanting to use it any particualr way. If the glove is affecting the hand any way through collision when collision is turned on in the G8.1F with the glove as target, it should be shrinking the hand, not swelling it, as indeed happens with another invisible glove collider product by a different creataor. I just can't understand how what happens can happen.
But I'm done with this now. Yesterday I spent the whole evening trying different methods after removing the breaastacular, and wasted a lot of time. It's probably the brain fog making me miss obvious things, but an attempt with ScultpTool failed when I couldn't get my selection of vertices in the hand to persist, and then a move to DS4 to try using Mesh Grabber failed when I couldn't mange to shove the flesh in the breast down wihtout taking some finger with it. I ended up using LBG Soft Body Solution, which was a bit of initial frustrating trial-and-error to find out which numbered breast morph goes with which actual breast vertex, but I persevered and got something not at all perfect but good enough - most people won't even notice, looking at it (although unfortunately I make this stuff principally for me, not other viewers, and I DO notice).
I've now spent 5 days just grappling with materials for Meipe's cum figures and trying to get the breast-grip, all for one image. I'm releasing a story at DeviantArt - pictures with some accompanying narration and dialogue - and this has been far too long a hold up for just one picture (and even within the 'world' of the story, it isn't even a 'real' image but what one character is fantasising seeing at one point). The final version is rendering now, and it's good enough and will have to do.
Thanks for the interest, and especially for the wearable suggestion.
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