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drafter69  
#1 Posted : Wednesday, January 11, 2017 3:42:51 PM(UTC)
drafter69

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I am curious as to why there is such a focus on props that are designed for V4 and M4?  With all the wonderful figures coming from Daz3d (Michael 7, Darius and the other Gen 3 figures)  creators seem obsessed with V4 and M4.    Is there a reason???  

Just curious


Ron B
shadoman  
#2 Posted : Wednesday, January 11, 2017 4:58:47 PM(UTC)
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For me and perhaps some others , it is the refusal to move into a new system such as DAZ Studio

I've been with Poser since Version 3.0 and have purchased every upgrade till I moved from the memory hog P-8 to Poser Pro and 64 bit. I purchased a super duty PC to handle all the features and not have to worry about my system crashing because I wanted 6-8 characters in a scene.

I was also very upset as DAZ for awhile when they turned a blind eye on the Poser People that made them what they were at the time and stopped creating figures for Poser.  It was the who VHS vrs Beta Thing. or Vynle vers CD

Relax I got over it because which each update, it seems that the old version was not compatible with the previous version..  And they really jacked up the prices for their figures at the early start.. IMHO.  I saved a lot of money not making the switch, but when there was a chance that V4 M5 could work with poser using DSON,  I spent a few bucks and like others was dissapointed.  Some items used DSOn and others did not...  When DAZ moved from V5 to V6, I   remember people griping that with the new version, they had to purchase some crossover clothing program or buy all new items

Even now as more vendors flock to Genisis and hey, you have to make a buck where you can, it got harder to find M4 V4 items but we poser folks do appreciate those vendors who will still create props for Poser and DS.

I do envy the quality I see in those artist who use the geneisis figures,  they are simple beautiful,  but not enough for me to learn a new system at age 67

So we scrape by and make do with what we have.. and lord knows after a dozen years I have quite an extensive library of props and textures to the point I have cut back on purchases.  I will spend $$ on any new M4 Texture as they are rare, same goes with hair props and clothing,  I like well constructed sets and realistic poses, and anything kinky.  That is where my money goes now, and I make due for the many comics I create

Before I sign off..  I am NOT trashing DAZ Studio so I do not want to see any flaming wars as we have dozen of forum threads devoted to that

Regards   Shadoman

Who knows what lurks in the hearts of perverted artist....
The Shado Knows
captaintrips  
#3 Posted : Wednesday, January 11, 2017 5:06:53 PM(UTC)
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I don't think there's a focus on V4/M4. There's more and more products coming out for Genesis figures, much to my dismay. I am like Shadowman, too old to move to Daz3D and too much money invested in Poser products to buy into Daz3d. Most of the products for Daz3d are great looking. I drool over some of the female figures. Great stuff.

But I will continue to plod along with V4/M4 and appreciate the efforts of the vendors who do support Poser. I've also cut down on my spending but I do buy V4/M4 products here.




captaintrips
Teronsuke  
#4 Posted : Wednesday, January 11, 2017 5:50:30 PM(UTC)
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As new products go there is very little for V4/M4 these days,  it's here, but no where near the large scope it used to be.

With that said, as others have said here the bulk of the products released here are for G3F and G3M which work with MOST of the "chars" sold at Daz, as most are just the core G3F / G3M figure with extensive dial work done to them, but in the end they are pretty much G3 figures (or M7/V7 figures)

Anatomy products work with 90% of the new Daz figures,  as well as the clothing and pose sets found in the store.

With all of that out of the way,  I too was a life long Poser user, I would have stayed with Poser but I NEED to be able to sell products, and the market here HAS shifted to Daz products,  so I made the switch to Daz.   as for those who say they invested too much money and time in Poser to make the switch,  95% of ALL of my EXTENSIVE Poser runtime works in Daz with little to no tweaks needed (even stuff that claims DOES NOT WORK in Daz)  Hell I can even load up my PZ3 files (Poser save files) and 9 times out of 10 they load in with little to no issues (sans lights,  I need to add new lights into the scenes)


I was so dead set against moving to Daz,  but when I finally did...  as much as I hate to say this,  I wish I did it sooner.
thanks 1 user thanked Teronsuke for this useful post.
contedesfees on 1/12/2017(UTC)
captaintrips  
#5 Posted : Wednesday, January 11, 2017 8:40:40 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Teronsuke Go to Quoted Post
As new products go there is very little for V4/M4 these days,  it's here, but no where near the large scope it used to be.

With that said, as others have said here the bulk of the products released here are for G3F and G3M which work with MOST of the "chars" sold at Daz, as most are just the core G3F / G3M figure with extensive dial work done to them, but in the end they are pretty much G3 figures (or M7/V7 figures)

Anatomy products work with 90% of the new Daz figures,  as well as the clothing and pose sets found in the store.

With all of that out of the way,  I too was a life long Poser user, I would have stayed with Poser but I NEED to be able to sell products, and the market here HAS shifted to Daz products,  so I made the switch to Daz.   as for those who say they invested too much money and time in Poser to make the switch,  95% of ALL of my EXTENSIVE Poser runtime works in Daz with little to no tweaks needed (even stuff that claims DOES NOT WORK in Daz)  Hell I can even load up my PZ3 files (Poser save files) and 9 times out of 10 they load in with little to no issues (sans lights,  I need to add new lights into the scenes)

I was so dead set against moving to Daz,  but when I finally did...  as much as I hate to say this,  I wish I did it sooner.


Good to know, Teronsuke. I just don't think I have the energy to learn DAZ3D. Everytime I boot it up, it just looks so foreign to me compared to Poser.


captaintrips
lopriest  
#6 Posted : Wednesday, January 11, 2017 9:09:30 PM(UTC)
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I'm coming at this from the opposite direction, I started with DAZ and could never get into Poser, and was always bitching about great looking products made for Poser with no DAZ support.  That said, with the proper morph packages, V4 is still a great figure, and I have such a large library of V4 stuff that I still end up using her a lot.  It takes a litlle more work than with the Genesis figures but I don't think V4 is obsolete yet so any support for her is still welcome.
shadoman  
#7 Posted : Thursday, January 12, 2017 1:39:20 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: lopriest Go to Quoted Post
I'm coming at this from the opposite direction, I started with DAZ and could never get into Poser, and was always bitching about great looking products made for Poser with no DAZ support.  That said, with the proper morph packages, V4 is still a great figure, and I have such a large library of V4 stuff that I still end up using her a lot.  It takes a litlle more work than with the Genesis figures but I don't think V4 is obsolete yet so any support for her is still welcome.


I totally agree in regards to V4 and M4 Morphs...  there are many great packages out there and if one is skilled in post working, you can always smooth out the minor flaws and make V4 or M4 look pretty good.

I remember seeing V5 after she was relased at DAZ and noticed some of the same flaws that V4 had the where the upper arm meets the torso and in the leg bending.. Later versions have produced better base meshes, but at the time I thought.. what's the big improvement from V4 to V5.?? 

Who knows what lurks in the hearts of perverted artist....
The Shado Knows
DarkCowBoy  
#8 Posted : Thursday, January 12, 2017 9:07:28 AM(UTC)
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I'm a Poser guy too, my philosophy being that you should blame the artist, (the fool), not the tool, and that we just should learn to master a tool instead of buying brand new ones each time there is one out. I know I still don't know how to use half the tools and commands on Poser.

About M4 and V4, to my delight, I think there are more products related to those than they are nor probably never will be for no other else.
Why not ?
Well, because we all guess that after Michael 7, there will be a Michael 8, and most of the stuff created for the previous models won't work for the new ones. I think that, even if it's improved every time, no figures will be as lasting as the "4".

M4 and V4 are some kind of a standard.
They were a real huge improvement on their predecessors, whereas their immediate successors wasn't such a quality revolution.
They work for both Poser and Daz, while last figures only work on Daz.
And there is so much, so much stuff available for them, sets, poses, morphs, clothes, accessories, and so on.

I guess that's why people continue to use them, and to make stuff for them.


In the end, the only question is which model will YOU fall in love with ? That's the model you're gonna use the most, even if it's not the most popular. I know I keep on using Appolo Maximus.
mjw  
#9 Posted : Thursday, January 12, 2017 9:54:15 AM(UTC)
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Daz user here, who has tried and failed Poser several times - I just find it less intuitive. That said, I like the G3 figures a lot, but there are good and bad points about the entire range of figures. M/V4 are good 'workhorses' in that they are pretty well supported across many years, whereas the latest G figures have come and gone overnight. Genesis was brilliant because it was 'neutral' which meant lots of things fitted either gender, but that was soon history. G3 has loads of movement and detail potential, but that makes posing so much more of a task - and so much better when you get it right. I have recently posed most of the bones in a character's fingers to make her grasp something realistically, but such precision could only be done with earlier figures if the pose is a simple one from the kick-off. M/V4 are capable of great things, and some of the characters experts create are as good visually as most later figures, but they are falling behind sadly, because fewer items are made for them. Pity, because I use different figures in different circumstances.
What does this say? Use what works for you and enjoy what you use.
shadoman  
#10 Posted : Thursday, January 12, 2017 10:38:03 AM(UTC)
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Like some I do not use every tool found in Poser... right now I do not have the time to explore, I have Poser Pro 11 but continue to use Pro 2014 because I like the library system better and my sss shaders will not work in superfly..  I'm not even sure I will move up to whatever comes next for poser in regards to software version..  Someday, when I have finished with present comic commitments, I would like to spend an entire month learning poser 11 and Pauline ,,,,,  till then I use pro 2014
 
BTW  I also have Apollo MAX  a very useful figure ...

Regards shado

Who knows what lurks in the hearts of perverted artist....
The Shado Knows
truthordare  
#11 Posted : Sunday, January 15, 2017 9:21:45 AM(UTC)
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I've been using DAZ since day one. I cut my teeth on Genesis 1, but eventually incorporated V4 into my work because of my art's emphasis on athletic/muscular women, and later embraced Gen 2 and 3 as well. But even to this day, if you have invested in some anatomical corrections and have a bit of a feel for what you're doing technically, and in postwork, the V4 platform is hard not to remain in love with.

www.renderotica.com/gallery/shorturl/364064/Jonesy-Eight-Seconds?page=4&artistname=truthordare


KableSelec  
#12 Posted : Sunday, January 15, 2017 11:52:05 PM(UTC)
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I still have not heard the basis for this entire thread... WHERE is the supposed attention to V4 and M4 to which this is referring? Maybe the whole point was to start discussion as to the merit of those pre-genesis figures.

I also have to parrot Shadoman, who I have long admired for excellent works using V4 and M4. Personally it's got nothing to do with money. I use a PC and will probably never learn to use a Mac; likewise, I prefer the shortcuts and my own tools for making Poser work rather than Daz Studio. 

Do I care that it's free and I paid ~$40 Poser? Nahh. Who wants to keep buying figures just because Daz can and will create higher polygon count people?

When a lot of us have the ultimate goal of Game Development, too, it makes no sense to waste money on those things when they will get reduced, dithered down later anyway!
 
shadoman  
#13 Posted : Monday, January 16, 2017 1:46:19 AM(UTC)
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It's very obvious that DAZ will lead the industry in new mesh technology and that is all fine and good for those who want to explore that path.. Lets face it offering free software was a nice hook to get their product introduced into the marketplace and then make their money on mesh figures, clothing, hair and textures to use on them.

They made a move much disliked by Poser people, but as I said earlier, I'm over that now. What I am not over is the number of Vendors who just jumped ship and made items strictly for DAZ even though they had the means to help the poser establishment as well.  and my absolute respect for the vendors who do support both formats.

With that said. I could live without spending another nickel on gear and still have enough material to support me for a long long time and every once in a while I find a gem of a product that is still poser compatable. 

V4 and M4 are still favored by those of us who are still waiting for the second coming of a decent poser figure. Paul and Pauline right out of the box are an improvement,  but nothing compared to V4 and M4. Dawn and Dusk even with some enhancements are far worse. So until that time comes, For those of us who are die hard poser people find a need to keep using V4 and M4  and many of us can achieve quite a lot without the need to change to a new format.

Kudo's to those who bring such great renders to the gallery, but don't nock the old breed of poser users who work with what they have and have great post working skills and access to enhance graphic software to post some butt kicking images to show we still have what it takes to stave off the competition

Regards  Shadoman

Who knows what lurks in the hearts of perverted artist....
The Shado Knows
terrancew_hod  
#14 Posted : Monday, January 16, 2017 1:52:52 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: KableSelec Go to Quoted Post
I still have not heard the basis for this entire thread... WHERE is the supposed attention to V4 and M4 to which this is referring? Maybe the whole point was to start discussion as to the merit of those pre-genesis figures.

I also have to parrot Shadoman, who I have long admired for excellent works using V4 and M4. Personally it's got nothing to do with money. I use a PC and will probably never learn to use a Mac; likewise, I prefer the shortcuts and my own tools for making Poser work rather than Daz Studio. 

Do I care that it's free and I paid ~$40 Poser? Nahh. Who wants to keep buying figures just because Daz can and will create higher polygon count people?



Evidently a lot of people want to get better performing and better bending figures, otherwise they would not make them now would they? Nor would people that don't have access to them would continue to trot out this quite dead-horse-beating excuse that ultimately doesn't make sense in the face of product release over the things they actually use. 

Let's not use this excuse to make ourselves feel better, because if they did have these figures in their program of choice, they surely would be using them.

Quote:


When a lot of us have the ultimate goal of Game Development, too, it makes no sense to waste money on those things when they will get reduced, dithered down later anyway!
 



The same goes for this as well. There's quite of bit of people using this figure in the galleries here and products being sold as add-ons for this statement to even make sense. This discussion would go far better without the app and company bashing and stick to the topic at hand. That said there are V4 and M4 products still being released, but not to the degree the OP says. You can tell that by each storefront, particulary this one where there aren't any particular item for those figures until you get to the 3rd or 4th page of new releases.
mjw  
#15 Posted : Monday, January 16, 2017 7:59:25 AM(UTC)
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I return to my fundamental premise. M/V4 are still very versatile and well-supported, but they are old figures. It is not unlike modern cars (or indeed computers and other software). A modern car cannot be 'tinkered with' like an old banger in which the microchip was a fantasy. If the computers in modern cars go wrong the ability to respond is limited, and will no doubt become impossible when the makers withdraw support for old models. If all you want is a reasonably comfortable form of personal transport, the fundamentals are all you need, and they work very well. If in rendering your aim is to create reasonable and entertaining stuff, then M/V4 is superb - simple to use and with all its limitations still very powerful. It is not so good for photo-realistic imagery though, or for truly subtle posing (not using Daz anyway), so for that you have to use more recent figures. Neither is right nor wrong. They serve different purposes within the same genre.
I am less confident that Poser will be updated. I think the owners of the software have other fish to fry, otherwise they would have arrived on the scene with Daz-busters or at least Daz-poachers already.

Oh! and another point is that models for M/V4 are generally cheaper than for the newer figures, presumably because of their more simple structures.
supafly  
#16 Posted : Tuesday, January 24, 2017 6:34:58 PM(UTC)
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Started on Daz, moved over to Poser pretty quickly as it just felt more intuitive.

I've invested heavily into V4/M4 and would dearly love to work with the Genesis figures but I use a Mac which complicates matters even more and I've already wasted so much precious time trying to figure things out - mostly without success. So certainly for the near future I will stick with what I know and focus on a little more postwork where needed.

As for the emphasis on V4/M4... I'm not sure that's true from where I'm sitting. All too often I see some great looking clothes and scenes only to discover they're Genesis only... or Daz only, or PC only!

Masterstroke  
#17 Posted : Tuesday, January 24, 2017 7:48:49 PM(UTC)
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Started on Poser, switched to DS. G3 figures and Iray were enough reasons to me. I'd say, I'll go where the better figures and renderers are. Maybe IClone7 later this year, who knows.
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